MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Mathews" -Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Mathews" -Transcript

MR. MATTHEWS: James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family, one of the country's most influential evangelicals, had some harsh words when it came to Fred Thompson's presidential candidacy.

In a private e-mail, he wrote, quote, "Isn't Thompson the candidate who is opposed to a constitutional amendment to protect marriage, believes there should be 50 different definitions of marriage in the U.S., favors McCain-Feingold, won't talk at all about what he believes, and can't speak his way out of a paper bag on the campaign trail? He has no passion, no zeal and no apparent 'want to.' And yet he apparently is the great hope that burns in the breasts of so many Christian conservatives. Well, not for me, my brothers, not for me."

Is Thompson really the great hope for Christian conservatives? Well, Republican Congressman Zach Wamp of Tennessee is a Thompson supporter and Anita Staver is a self-described values voter and president of the Liberty Counsel, a public interest law firm that specializes in religious civil liberties and issues of human life and traditional family.

Let me go to Congressman Wamp. Is Fred Thompson a Christian conservative?

REP. WAMP: Well, there's no question he's a solid social and fiscal conservative with an eight-year track record in the United States Senate. That's why two dozen members of the House are solidly with him, and it's some of the most socially conservative members of the House, because we believe in him as a man.

MR. MATTHEWS: So what's wrong with him, Anita?

MS. STAVER: Well, thank you for allowing me to speak on this. And I must say that I'm not representing Liberty Counsel. I'm talking as a values voter, as you mentioned, saying my own personal statements.

And one of the things we're very concerned about him about is he really doesn't seem to understand the importance of marriage. He is against a federal marriage amendment. He says he favors a state's right to legislate same-sex marriage. And that is a problem, because he says that no state would do that. Well, as a fact, the state of California has already done that. It was only vetoed by the governor.

So it clearly shows he doesn't understand the issues. He says states' rights trumps over top of traditional marriage and family. And it doesn't really make any sense, any more than saying that the states could impose, for example, slavery and not wanting some sort of federal law or federal policy to abolish that. It just doesn't make any sense to any of us values voters.

MR. MATTHEWS: Congressman Wamp, is that a litmus test for you, that a presidential candidate or a future president should have to be for a constitutional amendment to prevent states from enacting same- sex marriage laws?

REP. WAMP: Well, I supported the federal marriage amendment, but I have to admire Senator Thompson's courage for standing up for what he believes is the federalist view, which is that if it's not defined in the Constitution, the 10th Amendment does apply. We've run roughshod over the Constitution. And frankly, this could be left up to the states. His perspective is don't turn this over to judges. They've proven to be too liberal. Let the legislatures in the states make this call.

But I'll tell you this. The president is not even involved in amending the Constitution. We all know that. So this is not a litmus-test issue. This is one issue. He's got a 10-year solid pro- life voting record. He's a solid conservative. He's the guy we can count on. And frankly, I've been in Congress 13 years. I know basically all these candidates. I'll guarantee you, of any candidate that can actually win our nomination and go head to head with Hillary Clinton, he's the most conservative.

MS. STAVER: Chris, this is really -- it is a federal issue, and the president has a great deal to do about it because he needs to be able to push this through Congress. And it's very important that he put in judges that are not activists and that --

REP. WAMP: He will.

MS. STAVER: -- we put in the right person on the U.S. Supreme Court that will --

REP. WAMP: He will.

MS. STAVER: -- take the right steps. Well, it just doesn't make any sense to allow one state to have same-sex marriage, and they will export it to other states, because we've seen these battles between, for example, right now Vermont and Virginia. There's a battle going on right now because Vermont has what is an equivalent to same-sex marriage, and it's wreaking havoc across our country in the lives of children. And we really just can't continue to sit back and watch this happen and to be able to support some sort of candidate who does not really understand the fundamental issue of marriage and how --

MR. MATTHEWS: How does it affect the lives of children? I'm sorry.

MS. STAVER: Because they're being pulled apart from their natural biological parents and being put in the lives of same-sex couples who aren't even really related, just based on some past relationship. It really doesn't make sense to not be able to have a federal marriage amendment to take care of those issues.

MR. MATTHEWS: No, wait a minute. I just want to get that one fact. I always like to know what people are talking about.

MS. STAVER: Absolutely.

MR. MATTHEWS: How are children being torn away from their parents and given to same-sex couples? How does that work?

MS. STAVER: Well, for example, there's a lady right now from Virginia. She and her partner went to Vermont, entered into a civil union. She had her own biological child, and now there's a custody battle going over that child because Virginia doesn't recognize same- sex marriages under the state law and Vermont recognizes civil unions and gives parental rights to people who are in civil unions. And this has set up a terrible battle.

MR. MATTHEWS: So who were her parents? Who raised her?

MS. STAVER: The person who raised her is her biological mother.

MR. MATTHEWS: And where's the --

MS. STAVER: And she had very little contact -- and that's the lady who --

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, how was she torn away from her natural parents? What do you mean by "torn away"?

MS. STAVER: Because there's a judge in Vermont that says that she has to travel -- the biological mother has to take her from Virginia to Vermont at least once a month to spend time with this person, who she's not even related to and does not even know. So this is just one example of things that go on all across the country.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, let me ask you --

MS. STAVER: And it's going to continue to happen unless we have a federal marriage amendment.

MR. MATTHEWS: That's the deal-breaker for you and Fred Thompson.

MS. STAVER: Absolutely.

Absolutely, it is.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, that's all it takes. Let me --

MS. STAVER: And there's many other things too. It's not just one issue. He's an uninformed, reluctant candidate. He can't face others. He won't debate. He delayed getting into the race. He told many of us that he was going to get into the race in July. He kept putting it off and putting it off. He won't discuss his faith.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, he is --

REP. WAMP: Let me participate here.

MR. MATTHEWS: Congressman Wamp, I have to tell you, he is going to debate, because I'm going to moderate the debate at CNBC.

REP. WAMP: There's no question. Let me say this.

MR. MATTHEWS: Go ahead.

MS. STAVER: He won't debate --

REP. WAMP: He is for -- Anita, he is for traditional marriage. He is against gay marriage. But he doesn't think we necessarily have to amend the Constitution to bring that about. This is possibly the most conservative position you can take.

I was here when this debate started. There was a discussion among evangelicals as to whether the federal marriage amendment was the actual best way to go on bringing about heterosexual marriage. There was a debate from the very start. He's taken the federalist quasi-most conservative libertarian kind of position here. So he is very much for traditional marriage.

MS. STAVER: He's not even as conservative as President Bush.

REP. WAMP: Listen, your husband moderated the debate that he didn't participate in, so you're already -- you've got an angle here. He's participating in the debates. He was drafted to run for president. He's the strongest candidate --

MS. STAVER: He refused to debate Huckabee.

REP. WAMP: -- because we need a strong candidate.

MS. STAVER: He refused to --

REP. WAMP: Listen, my nephew works for Huckabee. Huckabee's a fine man.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, he's going to -- let me just say it again, Anita and Congressman. He is going to participate in this CNBC debate --

REP. WAMP: Correct.

MR. MATTHEWS: -- which is going to air on this network as well.

Thank you both for joining us, Congressman Zach Wamp and Anita Staver.

MS. STAVER: It's great to be here. Thank you.

END.

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